To answer your exactly two-month-old question, I've been silent towards everyone--I cut off Wikia emails so I'd quit getting alerts about other series I don't want to see anymore. It's also why I haven't been able to answer wiki messages until I think to do so.
I'm sorry if I come across as patronizing when I write this. I don't mean to. I've tried rewording it but I can't get it to sound right in my head.
Silence, regarding your recent edit to Griffith's history section - I didn't decapitalise "Apostle". (If that was directed at me.) It was written that way initially - user Recludam rewrote the entire history section from scratch and used apostle as a common noun.
I'd argue that the term "apostle" is not a proper noun. Some people choose to capitalise it and some don't. Because of the way Dark Horse has printed the font - well, the way fonts are in comic books and manga translations in general - everything is in capital letters and the proper "canon" classification cannot be distinguished. Japanese does not use "capital letters" either. So, we can debate. The justification you gave (in the space alloted in the editing summary, maybe you can elaborate) is:
"It's a proper noun given to a grouped subset of characters."
If a term is used to refer to a grouped subset of characters, then it does not automatically make it a proper noun. Proper nouns, in this context, refer to organised groups, not groups in general. E.g The God Hand is the name of a specific group of individuals. The term "thieves" encompasses characters that are thieves. In this case, "apostle" falls into the latter usage.
The term "apostle" is not a title (like Count Julius - Apostle Zodd) and it is not the name of a particular group. It is a common noun, like "monster" or "demon" or "giant". The term "apostle" is the word used to describe people who have sacrificed their most valued thing after activating a behelit in the Berserk world. They are not members of an organised group, though they are (generally) loyal to the God Hand. E.g A person has to pass the Bar Exam in order to become a judge who works in Parliament. A person has to sprinkle pixie dust on themselves in order to become a centaur who works for the CA. A person has to sacrifice their most treasured thing in order to become an apostle who is loyal to the God Hand. The word apostle just means something different in the Berserk world as opposed to our world. That doesn't mean we have to capitalise it.
In any case, (generally) if you capitalise something in the middle of a sentence that is plural and it does not indicate that you have many nouns of a specific title (such as Bibles being used to refer to multiple books titled "the Bible") or that you are referring to members of an organised group (e.g the Nazis) then that is an incorrect use of a capital letter. Since apostle is not a title, and apostles are not members a group called "Apostle" or what have you, it should not be capitalised.
I have decapitalised "Apostle" on some pages because I noticed some pages had "Apostle" and some had "apostle", and it should be consistent. (Of course it's not consistent now, but I've got other priorities on the wikia currently.) Then there's the case of "Apostle Spawn" vs "Apostle spawn". The Apostles page uses "Apostle spawn" and the Apostle Spawn page uses "Apostle Spawn". Both are used on the wikia. Then there's the "Astral Plane" and the "astral plane", which are both used depending on who contributed to the page.
I've even seen "elves" be capitalised in the middle of sentences on this wikia. The term "elf" was capitalised everywhere, even when it wasn't just left capitalised as a lazy shortcut to link it to the "Elves" page. There's probably still something like "Guts meets an Elf called Puck" in the episode pages.
I'm open to being convinced that they should all be "Apostle", and I did try to find official sources as to how it should be classified, but could not.
Definition of "common noun" according to the Oxford Dictionary: a noun denoting a class of objects or a concept as opposed to a particular individual
According to Cambridge Dictonary: a noun that is the name of a group of similar things, such as "table" or "book", and not of a single person, place, or thing
I'd argue that apostles are a "class" of demon/monster in the world of Berserk or a "group of similar things/a grouped subset of characters" in your words, hence "apostle" is a common noun.
You are really overcomplicating this. "Apostle" is one of those title words that works that way because of the specifics of the sentence.
"I am an apostle of the God Hand!" > "apostle" here is interchangeable with words like "disciple", or "minister", etc. It denotes a relative role. The person speaking could be a normal human.
"I am an Apostle of the God Hand!" > "apostle" here is not interchangeable because the speaker is describing their own demonic nature, which is given the title of Apostle in this series. It's the same reason you capitalize "Titans" in attack on Titan (though I realize a lot of people forget to do that too).
Even if the nature of the subject weren't relevant, you would probably still capitalize to avoid confusion where words like "titan" or "apostle" do need to be used without capitals because they're descriptor words. True, it means something drastically different in Berserk than it does the real world, but the word "apostle" is still a native word there, part of the language, or so we can assume.
I'd like to ask for your opinion on the other terms I cited that are inconsistent, then. I suppose for the sake of preventing confusion "Apostle" can be used as a title - though I still see it as a common noun, with an alternate meaning in their world that would make the word "apostle" as in, messenger of God or disciple, a homonym to the apostle used to refer to the demons. Like how in our world, we use "plane" to refer to the flying vehicle and to a 2-D space, but don't capitalise either of them. Grammatically, I still disagree.
Apostle Spawn vs Apostle spawn
Astral Plane vs astral plane (I suppose this is down to whether one considers Physical Plane and Astral Plane to be the names of those planes, or the physical and astral to be descriptors and the planes themselves to be nameless or have some other title. I believe "netherworld" has been used once or twice by Void prattling on. Either way Astral Plane seems the safer bet, but i've seen it uncapitalised on the wikia many times.)
Elves and Elf vs elves and elf (This one should obviously be uncapitalised in my view)
Pishaca vs pishaca
Behelit vs behelit (the Crimson Behelit or Egg of the King is the title of a specific behelit and should therefore be capitalised. Behelits themselves are a class of object and are common nouns. Either way I can't be bothered going around the wikia and changing it since it is consistently capitalised, but my view on this may be flawed.)
I'm gonna be honest, Astral Plane vs astral plane has me stumped. I would say Astral plane would be more correct than Astral Plane if you had to capitalize. I think it's safe to go lowercase on that one.
Same deal with Apostle spawn. "Spawn" here is a collective term that can refer to any victim of indwelling or alteration by an Apostle, and has never been seen bent into a formal or titular word; you'd say spawn as in "toad spawn". Apostle is capitalized between the two as per the established rule. I believe I went and fixed that one on the page myself, but I may be wrong.
I'm a bit stumped on Pishaca too; it's used to refer to the demonized familiars the Kushan use, but I get the impression they're called that because pishaca is a literal kushan word rather than a name or title for them. For all I know, the Kushan just call them "familiars" and that's how it's translated. In that case, it's likely that it would remain uncapitalized. Resident Evil goes through a little bit of this; the Ganado and Majini enemies in 4 and 5 being an example. They're called that because the natives refer to them by ganados, meaning "cattle" and majini, meaning "wicked men"/"demon", and they're not capitalized in these instances. From there on out though, those terms become titles used to refer to humans infected with plagas, and become capitalized as Ganados and Majini.
I'm going to argue for Behelit with a capital B; a good rule of thumb that can solve most disputes like this is if the word in question is a name for something that the object is. Make a distinction between what something is and what it is called. Most of the Berserk verse's monstrosities are demons, and they're called Apostles. There are egg-shaped talismans used to call powerful demons, they're called Behelits.
I'm just gonna have to shrug for "elves"; there are a thousand different ways to take that particular one and I've seen it done both ways across dozens of series, though if I were to make an estimate, they're more often called elves with a lowercase "e" as it's supposed to follow the race wording convention that deems we don't capitalize "humans" either.
I'm going through pains to sound professional here, so to condense: Apostle spawn, probably astral plane, no fucking clue, pishaca, Behelit.
I agree completely with pishaca and, on reflection, astral plane as well. I think i've decapitalised "Astral Plane" on several pages because whenever the physical world/plane was referenced it would never be capitalised, and I thought "what the hell, astral plane's probably only capitalised because somebody wanted to link the page and stuck with that."
Apostle spawn is the way to go if Apostle is to be capitalised, I agree. The same rule would apply if you were to refer to them as pseudo-Apostles, which is what Guts calls them. I have no clue why the Count tells Zondark to take his "daemon" in the Dark Horse translation. Keep that off the wikia entirely... And Behelits would never be changed, hah, just some rambling in regards to how I think about them in my own head.
Sorry for troubling you. I just want to confirm with somebody else what we'd capitalise and not so I don't go around just changing things willy nilly for my own fancy.
Hey Silence. Sorry to bring the matter up again, but I'd like to revisit the issue of captialising the word "apostle".
I've just been rereading volumes 27 and 28 manga (scans of the Dark Horse translation, unfortunately, since I don't have these paticular volumes). I've noticed that at the beginning of Volume 28 and subsequent volumes, where short bios are given for each main character to refresh the readers' memories, that the word apostle is not capitalised in Griffith or Zodd's bio.
If the word is not capitalised in the official translation, surely we shouldn't capitalise it on the wikia?
It seems as if the Dark Horse translators themselves can't decide what to capitalise! Interestingly, starting with volume 27, they capitalise Eclipse, Interstice, and Crimson Behelit. From volume 31 to 32 the terms "eclipse", "interstice", and "crimson behelit" are left uncapitalised in the bios. They went and changed it again in volume 33, leaving eclipse and interstice uncapitalised but capitalising Crimson Behelit. This seems to be what they've settled on, since that is consistent with every subsequent volume.
But the word apostle has always been uncapitalised. The Dark Horse translators never capitalised it. Since we're going by the official translation (Band of the Hawk, Hanafubuku, italicised Seahorse etc) shouldn't we put apostle and not Apostle?
The blurbs at the beginning, I think we can excuse--they seem to be copy/pasted from volume to volume, taking the error with them each time.
I was going to ask about this, but then you pointed out that the Dark Horse translators can't seem to decide either. I would still keep up with Apostle, but if you're still teetering you could try asking the translators themselves. Does the Dark Horse version have that little blurb on the cover pages that tells you who's responsible for the translation?
What error are you referring to? If you are talking about the uncapitalised apostle, that is not an error. An error is a mistake. Apostle is consistently uncapitalised on both the bios and every volume blurb. That is an intentional choice.
The blurbs are not copy-pasted. They are different for each volume, and every volume that features the word apostle has it uncapitalised. I've provided two examples. Are you talking about the bios? If so, they aren't completely copy-pasted either. Zodd's bio is only on 32's, for example.
I never said that the translators could not decide in regards to apostle. Apostle is the one term they have decided on - there is no example of apostle being capitalised.
The head translator is Duane Johnson. There are no contact details for him specifically, as far as I can tell. I did find this thread on Skullknight.net where a consultant talks about his work translating Berserk. There's no mention of apostle, though.
In any case, even if I could, I don't see the point in contacting him really. I've provided examples of the official translation leaving apostle uncapitalised. You argue that we should capitalise it. In the end, it is down to the official material. Dark Horse holds more weight than a wikia administrator.
I think the wikia should be consistent with official sources. The fact is, NO official source has capitalised apostle, and that is that. We have examples from the official translation deeming it a common noun, so we use that. Unless an official source contradicts this, that is what we go with. For terms like Eclipse it can go either way because Dark Horse capitalised it intially, but now does not. For apostle, it has ALWAYS been consistent. There is NO example of it being capitalised, as far as I can tell.
Unless you can provide evidence of apostle being capitalised in an official source, or that the uncapitalisation is a mistake, which you haven't thus far, I won't be convinced. Where is the official source backing up your argument?
Yes, I was speaking about the character blurbs in the beginning. If "apostle" were a mistake, and the blurbs were pasted onto each successive volume, then it would make equal sense. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think it's possible.
No, I don't think translator comment is absolutely necessary--I just think it's a good idea in the wake of what you pointed out regarding "interstice" and "eclipse" and "crimson behelit". Consistency is key, so if Apostle is uncapitalized in the only heterogenous-case lettering you can find, roll with it.
I apologise if I come across as defensive. My writing style is quite blunt. I don't mean to come across that way.
So you are talking about the bios and not the blurbs, then? I am referring to the paragraph intoducing the story of each volume, not the character bios. And i've already said that they are not copy-pasted.
I'd also point out that if apostle was a mistake in the character bios, it would have been changed anyway. For example, Chestnut Puck was changed to "chestnut Puck" in subsequent volumes. I don't see why they wouldn't change apostle the same way if it was a mistake.
Consistency is key, yes. And apostle is consistently uncapitalised. The other terms do not matter here - they can go either way. Apostle cannot.
I will ask again, where is your official source? Even a "heterogenous" official source is better than none at all. Your arguement as it stands has no basis.
I don't have a source, because I'm not making an argument--a vital point you're missing here. I am not contesting you. I am giving you free reign to go back and change "Apostle" to "apostle". Please do so, because your own case for it is good.
Ah, okay. I'm sorry I misunderstood. I thought your final sentence was sarcastic. "so if Apostle is uncapitalized in the only heterogenous-case lettering you can find, roll with it." I definitely misunderstood your use of heterogenous there, hah. You were referring to a source with capital letters and uncapitalised letters. I admit I had to look up the work heterogenous - and I saw that it meant "having widely dissimilar elements or constituents" and took it to mean that because there was inconsistency with some terms, that my conclusion with apostle was wrong. I skipped over the case lettering bit in my mind and jumped the gun, sorry mate.
I'm 16 - please don't confuse my feeble brain with big words like heterogenous! (Seriously though, sorry about that.) I went back and changed it.
For what it's worth, I did look all over to find any other sources. I checked Art of War's website and couldn't find the word apostle on any of their descriptions - even for Zodd. I also checked around any promotional material I could find to see if there was anything with "Apostle" or "apostle" and couldn't. I did find an image advertising the new Berserk Volume 1 cover in Japan with "Berselk",
Looking further, I also found this description of Volume 29 on Dark Horse's website. The only one with the word apostle and it is uncapitalised. The description itself isn't in the volume, I don't think. Anyway, those are the only sources I can find. This comment is basically a note to myself... eh.
Please could you offer your opinion on the newest issue being discussed in this thread. Basically, what should the limit be for the number of quotes allowed on a character's page? Eck and I say that there should be a maximum of four quotes per page for all characters - one intro quote, then one per personality, abilities, and history section at the most. OPN says that the limit for main characters should be 7.
Just need some more opinions to finish up the discussion since it's reached a stalemate. Thanks.
It's a safe bet that he's dead. After being shot head on, the chapter ends and the manga transitions to the quest Guts' party is on. First and foremost, it wouldn't make sense to do that in the middle of an "Apostle Arc" as I like to call them where an Apostle is pursuing a target.
But here's how I figure it, putting that aside: his only weak point is his head, which was right in front of Rickert when he blasted Raksas with the cannon. True, he can move his head, but he was also in flight at the time, and it would be very nonsensical to have his head somewhere else in an attempt to chase down a target flying at high speed. His body is seen falling to the earth in two pieces, one the head and the other the rest of him, while Griffith watches from the distance.
It's safe to say he's dead. If he does turn up alive again, it will likely be because Griffith worked some renewing magic--which he can do, as a Godhand, and is likely going to, as Raksas is an excellent assassin.